Zhao Changpeng's CZ talks in detail about BNB, BNBChain and their ecosystem

David: Okay, good morning, CZ. Glad to meet you.

CZ: Good morning David. Glad to meet you.

David: I'm really excited to start this conversation with you. We've known each other for a long time and it's been a wonderful journey. The recent market has also been exciting, especially today BNB is hitting a new all-time high. How are things on your side? Where did you connect from?

CZ: The situation is pretty good. I'm in Tokyo now. Like you said, BNB is hitting a record high. I'm not really sure what caused it, but I think your efforts definitely contributed, so thank you. Overall, everything is pretty good.

David: Glad to hear that. I'd like to review it from the beginning. We've had an amazing journey together in the crypto space. Back in 2017, when BNB first launched, the wave of ICOs and functional tokens was booming. BNB really stood out in that world. It was the first project to break the rules, and it was also quite innovative at the time. Now what do you think of the evolution over the years? Have you ever thought it would grow into the thriving ecosystem it is today?

CZ: That's a great question. At the beginning (2017), BNB was an ERC-20 token on Ethereum that was only used to raise capital. We knew at the time that a blockchain would be developed; it was public, decentralized, etc. But I actually didn't expect it to grow into a full ecosystem. So it's really rewarding to see all of this now. Frankly speaking, I've been busy running centralized exchanges for most of the past seven or eight years, and I haven't actually spent much time on the BNB chain during that time. Over the past two years or so, I've had to deal with the US government, handle US government cases, fly to the US, and spent four months in jail, and so on. So we haven't actually invested much time or effort in the BNB chain in these 7-8 years. But despite this, the community has grown. This year in particular, we are starting to pay more attention to the BNB chain. I'm also paying more attention to the BNB chain—there's nothing else I can do.

CZ: And you're also in this ecosystem, which is really powerful. This year we've seen the BNB chain really flourish. That's a really good thing. I think that even today, the BNB chain is still “underdeveloped” and the entire ecosystem is still “underdeveloped.” This means there are still plenty of opportunities to give different projects room to grow bigger. Overall, I think it's great.

David: Yes, I totally agree. Recently, I've actually been carrying the BNB flag outside, and doing my best to explain to investors the difference between BNB (as an asset) and BNB Chain (the entire ecosystem), and how it has evolved to no longer be tied to any single company. How do you usually explain this difference to people?

CZ: Yes, a lot of people will be confused because many media like to call BNB “Binance Coin.” This has to do with history: I did call it that name in the beginning. We then tried rebranding a few times, hoping to differentiate the two. BNB initially had more equity on the Binance centralized exchange, but now, as you said, it's a thriving ecosystem of its own. BNB is a native asset on multiple blockchains, currently including BNB Smart Chain @BNBCHAINZH and Tendermint's BNB Beacon Chain. In the future, BNB will also be the native token of multiple blockchains using newer technology.

CZ: BNB is the token that powers the decentralized ecosystem of the BNB blockchain, and it is very different from “Binance's token.” While Binance's centralized exchange still offers fee discounts for using BNB, that's just one of many use cases. Centralized exchanges will also provide BNB holders with opportunities to participate in yield airdrops, such as Launchpad, Launchpool, Binance Alpha, etc. But then again, this is part of BNB's equity. BNB itself is a very booming ecosystem: it has multiple DEXs, perpetual contract DEXs, lending agreements, stablecoins, etc. on the chain. There are many, many things on the BNB blockchain. Actually, I also think it's quite difficult to explain clearly to many people, and people are easily confused - so I think you're doing a better job than me at this. Thanks for the help.

David: No, I can't talk about it yet, but thank you for the compliment. Listen to me, one of the things I'm really doing out there right now is provide as much explanation as possible. You know, we've also talked about it many times: I've been in this field for a long time and have seen all kinds of evolutions. I've seen many people come and go, and see iteration and innovation, particularly driven by regulatory factors. Right? So for me, it's great to now be able to clearly explain this “how evolution happened”, including what you've built over the years, and that you're one of the best builders in the industry.

David: In my opinion, BNB is a collection of many things, and it has been shown that it may be the most continuously iterative chain over the years. Every chain—like Ethereum—has its own roadmap, lots of different ideas, and upgrade visions. We also know that Bitcoin has a lot of “political elements” when it comes to BIP (improvement proposals), and there are many iterations of all kinds. So, in a sense, BNB can be considered one of the chains that have successfully upgraded and evolved over the years.

CZ: Yes. I think every chain actually evolves all the time. The BNB chain has indeed evolved a bit more as it evolved from a Tendermint-based blockchain. It started out as an ERC-20 token, then migrated to the Tendermint blockchain, became an EVM compatible chain, and grew to layer 2 (OpBnB). Next, we have Greenfield (offset storage). There are also new variants currently being considered and developed by developers. From this perspective, we have evolved more structurally. Most other blockchains started with one architecture and have been maintained; from the perspective of the BNB chain, the BNB token is the native asset of multiple blockchains. The underlying technology can evolve over time.

CZ: I've talked to some of the core devs a few times. They're looking at what the “next generation” will be: the next-generation architecture should provide 100x and 1000x throughput, more capacity and stability, lower costs, and “fully understand” AI and be ready for AI; at the same time, it will also have to natively support stablecoins, RWA, etc. There are many related discussions. I hope our mentality, and the community's mentality towards BNB, is that this coin will be the native coin of multiple blockchains, and the technology will continue to evolve rapidly. Hope we can make this happen together.

David: Yes, I totally agree. Also, a big part of it is about the community, as you said. The community has been inspired by you over the years, as well as by the BNB Chain team and all participants. I myself have also been observing and seeing a high level of enthusiasm from the outside world. You mentioned stablecoins a few times before, so let's dive a little deeper. Now is the time for the “stablecoin story”: With the recent Circle IPO and the trend of Ethereum over the past few months, Wall Street and many investors are beginning to realize the potential of stablecoins, and the passage of the “Genius Act” has had an impact. I'll tell you that in fact, in many ways, we've seen a very strong growth in stablecoins on the BNB chain, even surpassing Ethereum in some stages. So what do you think of the stablecoin layout on the BNB chain? From a global perspective, would you think of stablecoins as a kind of “dollar ETF”?

CZ: There's so much we can talk about stablecoins. People now realize that stablecoins are probably one of the biggest businesses in crypto. Binance, a centralized exchange, has a strong influence in terms of “which projects can go online,” but in terms of profitability, I think Tether is probably the most profitable company per person in human history. For example, they earn $13-15 billion a year and employ around 200 people, which is an exaggeration. So now everyone wants to be a stablecoin. Circle has also had some success. In fact, BUSD was stopped by NYDFS about two years ago, but it grew from 0 to 23 billion in two to three years; and that happened during a relatively “anti-crypto” administration (the Biden administration's “war on crypto”). However, USDC has not been suspended, so it continues to grow and is now publicly listed.

CZ: There are thousands of projects trying to make stablecoins right now, which is great. I think it will bring more variety, some will provide higher returns, some will have new features, etc. But if you actually look at the stablecoin landscape, my impression is that stablecoins aren't really needed in the US. Although the largest stablecoins in crypto today are all denominated in US dollars and pegged to the US dollar, there is ACH in the US, and transfers within the US are relatively easy. Stablecoins are being used a lot; in fact, it is an international scene outside of the US. Stablecoins help make the US dollar more dominant globally; honestly, every country wants their currency to be used more globally. For example, China's renminbi also wants to become the dominant global currency, and so do other countries. Stablecoins are one way to do this. It helps encryption, helps the blockchain industry to better integrate into traditional financial systems, and also allows crypto practitioners to have a stable value anchor in the ecosystem, at least denominated in fiat currency; at the same time, it is also very helpful to countries. Therefore, if viewed from the perspective of pure economic interests, countries should encourage the development of their own stablecoins.

CZ: Back to the BNB chain ecosystem. Historically, neither USDT nor USDC have provided strong native support; they only recently began issuing natively. I don't think Tether is currently being released natively on the BNB chain, while Circle is already native, but it only recently started. So here's a gap, a niche that can be filled. I think USD1 has made up well, and we've seen it grow very strongly over the past few months. So I think stablecoins will continue to exist and become a big player—a big racetrack, to be precise. Back a few years ago, I didn't really understand it myself. When we first started on Binance, I was wondering: Who would use stablecoins? Why not just use fiat currency? However, stablecoins do solve many problems: it is much easier to use blockchain for international transfers; blockchain has no boundaries and helps keep prices synchronized between different exchanges; and it is also an easier “form of fiat currency” to use. Because of this, it is growing very fast and will continue to grow. There are still many opportunities on the stablecoin circuit on the BNB chain, as this piece is underdeveloped. We've seen a significant increase in USD1, and I'm actually expecting more development there.

David: Yes, I agree. This also brought us back to NYDFS. They are really creating problems. Even since I first entered this field, the New York Bit License has been slowing innovation — not only in New York, but across the US, and even globally, because many regulators would look at New York's Bit License and then take the opportunity to slow down the development of encryption, so the “war on encryption” began even earlier. Now on many stablecoins, I'll also go back to the original Tether. Tether was born out of industry demand: people move value between exchanges, and the existing financial infrastructure tried to block it. Tether played its part and grew to what you said — the most profitable company in the industry and one of the most profitable companies in the world. As activity on the BNB chain increases, demand for stablecoins will naturally be captured and will help support this activity.

David: Next up is the next field, RWA. I think we've finally reached an inflection point in RWA's growth. Over the past few cycles, we've seen “starts and pauses”: from the earliest real estate tokenization projects to the tokenization of some funds. But now we do see a lot of RWA activity picking up. What do you think of our current position in the RWA adoption curve? And some of the things you've observed around the BNB chain?

CZ: We've been in this field for over ten years and are “hardcore believers” and believe everything will be tokenized. Not only buildings and traditional money market funds, but even “people” can be tokenized; virtual things can also be done. So everything can be tokenized, but tokenizing is not easy. I personally think more traditional financial instruments will be tokenized first because they are better suited for trading. For example, in real estate, prices do not fluctuate that much, and there is not much transaction volume, so liquidity is poor. If you tokenize a building, because the price is relatively stable, the trading volume won't be large; without sufficient trading volume, people won't place large orders on the order book, and liquidity will be even worse. If you want to move in or out of a few million dollars or more, it will be very difficult and prone to abnormal price behavior.

CZ: Not every asset is easy to tokenize. Because of high price fluctuations, crypto assets have developed “characteristics”. People are more willing to trade, and the trading volume is higher. Also, when you tokenize a building, if you want to buy the entire building, you have to buy all the tokens on the market; the last few token holders may not want to sell, and the price will be raised very high. Furthermore, owning a “fragment” of a building doesn't necessarily mean you can live in it; in other words, how to enjoy what kind of economic use rights and financial benefits. There are also regulatory concerns: when you tokenize a property, does it count as a security? or something else? Who will oversee it? In large countries, this problem is particularly obvious, as financial markets may have multiple regulators; in other countries, there may not be this problem, but the regulatory framework is still important — what can and cannot be done with these tokens? Many questions remain unclear today.

CZ: I think RWA is going to be big, it's going to get bigger. If you also count stablecoins as RWA (many people do), it's already huge. Other updated assets will also be interesting. But I personally think that traditional financial assets will first be tokenized, then commodities that are easier to conceptualize and redeem (such as oil, corn), and finally others.

David: That makes sense. I'm also excited about the current cycle: many crypto players are “falling out” in traditional finance as never before; I've also seen some TradFi (traditional finance) players try to enter the crypto market. For example, Galaxy — I think they've recently been one of the first companies, probably the first to tokenize their shares, and you should also read related news. We'll see more such attempts. As to whether there will actually be a lot of demand, and whether people in the crypto industry will be really interested in participating in the traditional financial market of “tokenized stocks” — this remains to be seen. Now back to the topic of “value migration from centralized exchanges to decentralized exchanges” and other areas of the future. On the recent BNB Day, you said: if you start over and are 20 years younger, you'll work as an AI Agent and a privacy-focused DEX. That touched me a lot. When you think about that tipping point — I've also heard you talk quite a bit about the “future picture” about how the crypto market is moving from centralized exchanges to DEXs. How do you think this will evolve?

CZ: Of course. First, in response to the other point you mentioned: tokenizing stocks. I think this is the “most obvious” thing to do because which country doesn't want their shares to be accessible to global users? The problem is that most stocks are classified as “securities.” When it comes to securities, all countries have very strict laws (mostly SEC-like regulators), and there is also some kind of SEC coalition at the international level. As a result, now some people issuing stock tokens are trying to skip many “circles” and separate “tokens” from “securities.”

CZ: This poses a problem: the price of the token is out of sync with the price of the stock, which is not right. In my opinion, if there is a price difference, you should buy the cheaper one and then redeem it for the more expensive one; the price difference will disappear as more people make it. However, the truth is that price differences have always existed, which means that the process from beginning to end has not been completed. By my definition, this means the product “doesn't work yet.” But I do think stock tokenization is a big market, and we need regulations to give very clear guidelines — what can be done, what can't be done, etc. I know that many countries are piloting, whether in the US, the UAE, or other countries.

CZ: Back to AI. I think AI will increase the amount of interaction between people by 3 to 6 orders of magnitude, say 1,000 to 1 million times. In the future, each of us will have tens of thousands of agents working for us in the background. There will be agents to transcribe this content — maybe AI is already transcribing this episode of the podcast. I hope in the future, an agent will edit the video, pick out the best parts, help me get rid of wrinkles, post it online, and monetize it in some way. For example, if people watch one-third first, they need to pay a little to see the remaining two-thirds, or even “a fraction of a few cents.” All of these fairs are “ultra-high frequency, ultra-low cost”. I think blockchain is the only solution that can handle this type of transaction. AI will dramatically increase blockchain transaction volume.

CZ: At the same time, blockchain can also do many things for AI: for example, “secure AI,” such as privacy protection, security training, secure data collection and use, etc., can all be achieved using blockchain in a way that is truly controlled by users. I've also talked to some AI companies: they'll use blockchain to “make the algorithm development process transparent” and give people a peek inside, because now it's a black box. We don't know what data was used for the training, but it seems that AI can give the answer. For example, if I ask AI to summarize any book — if AI has this book, I'm not sure if it's paying for every book; I'm not sure if AI is paying $10 for every existing book; if I let it summarize a paid page, AI can inexplicably have it. Therefore, there are many potential problems with AI that can be solved by blockchain. Again, I think this is a huge industry. A better statement is: At least in my lifetime, I have had three basic technologies — the Internet, blockchain, and AI. There are still plenty of opportunities on the internet, but the latter two are just getting started; all three have plenty of room to grow, and the latter two in particular have huge potential.

David: I totally agree. I've also spent a lot of time studying the AI market and its evolution. Last year, I was thinking about a lot of ideas, such as setting up a bank dedicated to AI agents — each of us would have tens of thousands of agents and make “trillion-level” transactions every day, more than our brains can comprehend. We need a blockchain-based, scalable ecosystem to host those activities. As you said, AI cannot KYC, and exchanges and banks cannot complete account opening. So without blockchain intervention, this wouldn't be possible. As far back as 2017-2018, I participated in one of the earliest AI agency projects, but it didn't come to fruition, called “Botchain.” When you have unlimited, unimaginable “bot-to-bot” communications, we need to leave marks, and these records must be verifiable and on-chain. In this way, during the audit, you can see where my LLM/agent pulled the data, where did you pull it from, and what agreements they reached over a period of time.

David: Now I want to go back a little bit from CEX and DEX because this is another fascinating issue in the market. Looking back over the past few cycles, centralized exchanges have long been a key driver of many activities, and are also the “first stop” for crypto for many people. We're seeing rapid growth in DEXs now, and I think this is a trend we both expect to continue. So how do you think this will evolve over the timeline?

CZ: The trend is very clear. It's very clear that DEX will be bigger than CEX in the far future. As you said, CEX is in my opinion a “stepping stone” for people to enter the crypto world. Users from Web2 will find it easier to use an email address and password. There is customer service and someone who can help you. The concept of an escrow platform is also easier to understand because it's conceptually more like a bank. But as they get more experienced, they'll say: I now have my own wallet and can manage it myself, which gives me more freedom and control, and also means more responsibility (like protecting my device). Once people get hold of these, they'll switch to DEXs.

CZ: So I'm 100% sure DEX will be bigger than CEX in the future. Therefore, the chain itself—the chain's ecology—is very important. This is why in my opinion, in the long run, the “chain ecosystem” is far more important than any centralized exchange. In this sense, I'm being forced to stop spending time on centralized exchanges, which is a good thing. Now I have more time to contribute to the decentralized ecosystem. And it's actually quite fascinating, because once you get used to it... I'd say that the decentralized ecosystem is still quite difficult for the average person to use. The volume of transactions is growing and is quite impressive, but for the average user, when using decentralized products, they see a lot of random strings, lots of random numbers on the screen — what to do? Even on centralized exchanges, there are a lot of numbers, but at least they are understandable. We need to make the product better and easier to use as a community. But “on-chain, decentralized” is definitely the future; otherwise, we wouldn't be in this industry, right?

David: This is also linked to what makes me excited about today's market. Looking back at my career: I came from the traditional financial world, but now I'm a “crypto geek” and “lifelong cryptographer,” and will always be. I've been trying to connect the crypto market to the capital market: trying to make a Bitcoin ETF, get Galaxy listed, and help other companies go public. In every cycle, I try to help as many people as possible see opportunities and become a small bridge between the two markets. As far as we are today: we see a lot of activity flowing from centralized exchanges to decentralized exchanges, yet at the same time, the vast majority of the world's wealth and capital still flows through traditional finance, through centralized exchanges and markets in the traditional world.

David: I think the real huge opportunity right now is the “Digital Asset Treasury (Digital Asset Treasury).” This is what Michael Saylor has achieved over the past five years. In fact, I just talked to someone else: Michael Saylor wasn't always a Bitcoin believer. In contrast, you and I have always held the Bitcoin flag high since entering this field, and have also tried our best to hold the BNB flag high, and have always been long-time believers. I also often say to people: You're probably someone I've seen in the industry who can take a step back and stay focused during every fluctuation — “Focus on holding bids, don't be shocked by fluctuations.” Volatility is a “characteristic”, especially when you're in a rapidly growing asset class. As the regulatory environment improves and investors' awareness of the potential and value of digital assets increases, I think Saylor is leading the way; there are also people such as Simon of Metaplanet Japan, David Bailey, and Anthony Pompliano. Many people are holding up the Bitcoin banner to make people understand how such assets can enter government and corporate balance sheets as unique assets.

David: I'm also very excited to tell you the story of BNB, which shows just how special and unique an asset it is. Based on this, whether as an investor or as CEO running an industry-leading digital asset treasury company, I see a need: we must focus on a few truly special and unique crypto assets, because not all crypto assets are the same. You and I know all about BNB — there's something special about this. It has indeed outperformed Bitcoin over the past few months; from the start, it is one of the few assets that can outperform Bitcoin. When you think about digital asset vaults and the new wave, what do you think of this market and the opportunities in it?

CZ: There's a lot to take apart here. First, back to the starting point: humans like to use “classification” to understand things, and think it's easier; for example, “traditional finance vs. Web3” and “Web2 vs. Web3.” But in fact, there are no boundaries: at the end of the day, it's all finance, just using different technologies. Traditional finance can fully use blockchain technology; banks can use blockchain technology; crypto companies should also be deeply integrated with traditional financial markets and market structures. We shouldn't draw lines apart; we should fully integrate them — the terms are just for better understanding. In this sense, crypto companies should connect to existing markets (raise capital, find developers, obtain resources), and existing financial markets should also use new technology.

CZ: As for Michael Saylor, my instinct is that he probably started being active in the public eye from 2017-2018, and probably earlier. Once he understood, he had a very strong conviction. We have experienced it ourselves: learn first, then “transform” or “completely transform”. Being a firm believer, we can overcome fluctuations because we can see the longer term future—not tomorrow's or tomorrow's prices (those that can't be predicted), but trends five or ten years from now. This is interesting. Saylor invented a new structure, and he did try to explain it at various times, but I didn't get it, but I salute him. This new structure allows crypto companies to raise money from traditional markets. The traditional market is larger. Many investors can buy company shares but cannot directly buy crypto; if they can buy stocks “indirectly related to crypto,” they get a convenient entry into Web3. Once they have this indirect exposure, they will continue to focus on crypto and help the ecosystem grow.

CZ: In that regard, Saylor used a very simple strategy to build one of the most successful companies in the world. Although he is a die-hard fan (Bitcoin Maxi, just looking at Bitcoin), there are other highly successful cryptocurrencies, including BNB and many other public chains. Judging from the success of Binance (centralized exchange): if it only uses Bitcoin, it will not be that successful; it is precisely because of various assets that it has attracted a large number of users to enter crypto. You and I agree that BNB has strong performance and many usage scenarios. We're at the intersection of what you said: connecting traditional finance with Web3 finance. Tools such as DAT enable crypto companies to obtain traditional market funding and also enable traditional markets to participate in cryptography. This is a two-way benefit. The more people are exposed to BNB or other crypto assets (whether directly or indirectly), the more they help the crypto ecosystem.

CZ: It's “extremely beneficial for both parties”: once a company or investor has gained indirect exposure to BNB, they may recommend a friend; if they know the developer, they may say “Why not develop your protocol on BNB?” “Why not use BNB to do this?” “Why not do that with another crypto asset?” This will help the ecology grow. It's important to note that in a decentralized world, it's not driven by a company or person. I'm not “driving” everything in BNB; I do what I'm supposed to do, but I don't manage everyone in the ecosystem, and they don't report back to me. The more people bind their motivations to the ecology, the more they will contribute, which in turn helps everyone in the ecosystem. Even in a decentralized world, if we can help more people form “mutual symbiosis,” it will promote ecological growth. So I think it's a great thing: Michael Saylor pioneered it, and now we're adopting it, and you're leading the way, which is great.

David: Thanks for the approval. Like the multiple encryption cycles we've discussed, this can be said to be a path that was not anticipated in the first place. You spent a lot of time communicating with the heads of various governments and companies. We have long imagined that one day the government will buy digital assets such as Bitcoin, Ethereum, and BNB. But we didn't realize it at the time that a “corporate form” could also emerge. Their goal is to maximize the “amount of bitcoins or BNB corresponding to each share” to accumulate these assets and become very large holders; this provides an incredible way for investors to gain exposure to these assets and ecosystems. More importantly, what you mentioned: by gaining this kind of exposure, everyone will step deeper into the ecosystem, and only then will it form a special “flywheel.”

David: I often give the example of El Salvador (we went together a few years ago). El Salvador has done something special: using Bitcoin to “get out of the ring.” At the level of “actually holding Bitcoin,” they also received a good return on the dollars invested; but the greater reward was “putting themselves on the map” and making themselves famous. They attract entrepreneurs, developers, investors from all over the world. When 10,000, 20,000, and 100,000 people enter a small country, the compound benefits of scale will fundamentally change the trajectory of that country over the course of a generation. We're seeing a similar phenomenon all over the world: as long as countries open up regulation, attract innovators, entrepreneurs, and capital, and open their doors to crypto, they will eventually reap more and more dividends over time.

CZ: Absolutely. I totally agree. Before Michael Saylor, if someone said to me, “You can become a listed company to buy crypto assets,” I'd be crazy: How can that work? This also reflects my poor understanding of open markets and traditional markets—even though I've been in fintech for many years, I haven't run a listed company, so I don't understand it. Saylor was clearly more experienced and he figured it out. Then El Salvador is also very interesting: this is a very clear example of leadership — President Booker. We wouldn't have gone there without his push (why would I go there?) ; Without his encouragement, Binance wouldn't have set up a customer service office there, etc. I think this is a classic case: if a country adopts new technology quickly or early enough, it can reap greater dividends.

CZ: Let's look at the United Arab Emirates (UAE) again. The UAE has always been “pro-crypto and pro-AI”, attracting many new entrepreneurs. The UAE doesn't have many natural resources — it has oil, but not many others; it's a desert. But now it's a world-class, thriving city (two). Everyone loves it there. The economy is performing very well, and the country is growing rapidly. I think countries that have adopted technology in the early stages and in the right way will grow very fast. This goes back to the innovations we've seen: RWA, AI, etc. If the country can adopt these new things, the economy will continue to grow.

David: I love that example, too. The UAE has achieved impressive results in 10-20 years; growth is compounding. To wrap up, if you talk about your vision for BNB and the entire crypto ecosystem in the next 10-20 years: what do you think of “possibilities and potential”? How would you measure “success”?

CZ: My point of view is: How many people can we use BNB to help. Many companies won't focus on poor or underdeveloped countries, such as Africa and Southeast Asia, because the ROI is not obvious right now. But if you look at Binance (the company, not the BNB chain), there are many users in Africa today, and these users are currently generating very little revenue; I think ten years from now, they will bring in a lot of revenue, and no one else is there. We help them first by connecting them to finance; then, they will reap, and the platform will be rewarded in the right way, which is a win-win situation.

CZ: For BNB, the opportunity is greater because it is a decentralized and open network and protocol. What I want to do is bring the next few billion people to the next wave and provide them with the next stage of new fintech — “the next generation of new fintech.” As the world's population is likely to continue to grow, we should empower 10 billion people or more to provide them with financial services. That's the goal in my mind. It's not a price target, and it's not competing with other public chains or surpassing Bitcoin. As you said, BNB has actually outperformed Bitcoin in history so far, which is amazing and challenging; but I don't think that's the right “benchmark.” The right “benchmark” is how many people we can help as a community. The more people we help and the more people join the community, it's a phenomenon of self-growth. We should keep doing this.

David: I think that's a beautiful answer, thank you. Every time, I try to keep everyone in the right mindset: focus on the long term, focus on building, and focus on helping others. It's a beautiful vision.

CZ: Exactly. I think you have this mentality. You are one of the most personable people I've met in the industry. You've been in the industry for a long time, and you have a great sense of mission. So when you say you're willing to take the lead, we're all happy. Whether you need help from me personally, YZi Labs, or any of our affiliates or teams, we're happy to support you. At the same time, other participants in the ecosystem, or participants outside the BNB chain ecosystem, are also very willing to seek their help.

CZ: I think it's very important for the entire ecosystem to collaborate and expand the ecosystem; this will benefit everyone.

David: Absolutely. This has always been my way of doing things: collaboration. I also like to tell you that I have defined “why I love crypto”: it's the “most non-zero-sum” game in the world. Good players are trying to increase their market share. Actually, one more thing I want to summarize: if you think about the “next billion, next 2 billion” population, they will only live in a world where encryption is becoming more and more important. It's a beautiful vision for the future.

CZ: Absolutely, absolutely. David: CZ, it's a pleasure for me. It was a very enjoyable conversation, thank you, it was a great discussion. CZ: Great, thank you so much. David: See you soon.